Preface: Interesting discussions are going around among the Blogger's e-buddies for the past one week or two on the subject of Hokkien, Hakka and Hainanese dialects of ethnic Chinese in Malaysia. The Blogger being a Cantonese did not want to get involved in the so-called crossfire of words which is actually humorous and at times hilarious in nature, until he received an email from Dr JB Lim today November 6 (Sat) that prompted him to reply as follows:
Dear All,
I think I am “cornered” by the great Sifu Dr JB Lim to respond.
First of all, allow me to share with you my findings from GOOGLING (originally in Chinese, summarized in English by me) on the 2 topics of “Han Chinese Descent” and “Chinese Major Dialects” as follows:
1. Han Chinese Descent
Han Chinese descent (汉族) is China’s main ethnic group, with a total population about 1.3 billions, amounting to 19% of the world population. The origin of Han dates back to 5000 BC having gone through the Neolithic Period (新石器时期) and the Matrilineal and Patrilineal Clan stages (母系和父系氏族公社阶段) in the Yellow River basin (黄河流域). Han people are said to be the result of the merger of Ji tribe (led by emperor Huangdi or 黄帝) and Jiang tribe (led by emperor Yendi or 炎帝). Therefore, today Chinese are also referred to be the “Descendants of Yen and Huang (炎黄子孙)”.
Dear All,I think I am “cornered” by the great Sifu Dr JB Lim to respond.
First of all, allow me to share with you my findings from GOOGLING (originally in Chinese, summarized in English by me) on the 2 topics of “Han Chinese Descent” and “Chinese Major Dialects” as follows:
1. Han Chinese Descent
Han Chinese descent (汉族) is China’s main ethnic group, with a total population about 1.3 billions, amounting to 19% of the world population. The origin of Han dates back to 5000 BC having gone through the Neolithic Period (新石器时期) and the Matrilineal and Patrilineal Clan stages (母系和父系氏族公社阶段) in the Yellow River basin (黄河流域). Han people are said to be the result of the merger of Ji tribe (led by emperor Huangdi or 黄帝) and Jiang tribe (led by emperor Yendi or 炎帝). Therefore, today Chinese are also referred to be the “Descendants of Yen and Huang (炎黄子孙)”. In China, there are now all together 56 ethnic groups (including Han which occupies about 90% of the overall population). The major minority ethnic groups are Zhuang (壮族16.1 million), Manchu (满族10.6 million), Hui (回族9.8 million), Miao (苗族8.9 million), Uyghur (维吾尔族8.3 million), Tujia (土家族8 million), Yi (彝族7.7 million), Mongol (蒙古族5.8 million), Tibetan (藏族5.4 million), Buyei (布依族2.9 million), Dong (侗族2.9 million), Yao (瑶族2.6 million), Korean (朝鲜族1.9 million), Bai (白族1.8 million), Hani (哈尼族1.4 million), Kazakh (哈萨克族1.2 million), Li (黎族1.2 million) and Dai (傣族1.1 million).
2
. Chinese Major DialectsChinese belongs to Sino-Tibetan language family and can be divided into seven (7) major dialects: northern dialect or Mandarin (官话, also known as 普通话、国语、华语 depending on the region where it is spoken), Wu (吴语), Xiang (湘语), Gan (赣语), Hakka (客家话), Minnan (or Hokkien闽语) and Cantonese (粤语). Two (2) other dialects are added in recent years as other major dialects spoken in China: Guangxi’s Pin (广西平话) and Shanxi’s Jin (山西晋语).
All contemporary Chinese dialects are largely influenced by the Ancient Xia language (古夏言) spoken during the Western Zhou Dynasty (西周1046 BC ~ 771 BC). Various Chinese dialects share similarity in SYNTAX rules. Certain southern Han dialects such as Hakka and Cantonese preserve MORE features of the Central Plains Region Han language (中原汉語) used in the Tang Dynasty (唐朝618 AD ~ 907 AD）than other northern Han dialects. On the other hand, Hokkien also preserves the features of a large part of the Most Ancient Han language (上古汉語).
Now, back to the “squabbles” of dialects among you learned gentlemen over the past one week or so, may I share with you a FABLE written by the great ancient Chinese philosopher Zhuangzi (庄子 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi), i.e. “the war over lands on a snail’s horn” (蜗角之争 wō jiǎo zhī zhēng):Tai Chinren asked the ruler of the state of Wei, "There is a creature called the snail. Do Your Majesty know it?"
"Yes."
"On top of its left horn is a kingdom called Buffet, and on top of its right horn is a kingdom called Maul. At times they quarrel over territory and go to war, strewing the field with corpses by the ten thousand, the victor pursuing the vanquished for half a month before returning home.""Pooh!" said the ruler. "What kind of empty talk is this?"
"But Your Majesty will perhaps allow me to show you the truth in it. Do you believe there is a limit to the four directions, to up and down?"
"They have no limits," said the ruler.
"And do you know that when the mind has wandered in these limitless reaches and returns to the lands we know and travel, they seem so small it is not certain whether they even exist or not?"
"Yes," said the ruler.
"And among these lands we know and travel is the state of Wei, and within the state of Wei is the city of Liang, and within the city of Liang is Your Majesty. Is there any difference between you and the ruler of Maul?"
"No difference," said the king.
After the visitor left, the king sat stupefied, as though lost to the world.
(The original text: 惠子见戴晋人。戴晋人曰：“有所谓蜗者，君知之乎？”曰：“然。”“有国于蜗之左角者，曰触氏；有国于蜗之右角者，曰蛮氏。时相与争地而战，伏尸数万，逐北旬有五日而后反。”君曰：“噫！其虚言与？”曰：“臣请为君实之。君以意在四方上下有穷乎？”君曰：“无穷。”曰：“知游心于无穷，而反在通达之国，若存若亡乎？”君曰：“然。”曰：“通达之中有魏，于魏中有梁，于梁中有王。王与蛮氏，有辩乎？”君曰：“无辩。”客出而君惝然若有亡也。)
The moral of the story is: Life on earth is short, just like dwelling in the tiny horn of a snail. What is the purpose of fighting in such a limited space? Peace for humanity’s sake. No war!
To me, arguing about whose dialect group is more superior to or more historical than the others is as trivial as fighting on a snail’s horn too. Who wins? Who loses? So what?
As I said before, we all belong to the same Han Chinese race and the “Descendants of the Dragon”!Thanks to Dr Lim for highlighting the incessant warfare between the Cantonese-dominated Ghee Hin and the Hakka-dominated Hai San secret societies of the 19th and early 20th centuries involved in the Perak civil war. This is HISTORY. It is good to learn lessons from history. As the famous remark of Spanish philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist George Santayana (1863–1952) that goes “those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it", we shouldn’t repeat the same infighting within our own race in the form of dialect debates now!
Let’s move on and look forward to the dawn of a new era with China rising as a dominant power in the world, the glory of which I believe all ethnic Chinese around the globe irrespective of dialect groups would certainly enjoy sharing.This is my stand. And this is why I shy away from your discussions amounting to another form of “the Clash of Civilizations” among the Clans. Hehehe…...
Wishing you a pleasant weekend and thanking you for your patience to read,
Regards,
T.O. Lau
06/11/2010----------------------
The email from Dr J B Lim is reproduced as follows:
.
From: JB Lim
Subject: Hokkien and Cantonese fighting
Date: Friday, 5 November, 2010, 11:52 PM
Hi folks,
This column on Hakka tulou is getting longer and longer until it has now been spilt into several new separate windows by so many other net buddies, still on the Hakka and other Chinese clans. It became longer and longer with endless comments into the original picture story. It is now separated into many parts by net buddies 98% whom I do not even know.
So now I do not even know into which new window page should I continue with this commentary now? So I use some of the original continuity.
Reading all your inputs on the different clans of Chinese in this country, our honorable Ir TO Lau said he wants to keep out from this fight with the Hakka as he said he is a Cantonese, and that we are all the same Han Chinese. I never knew there is ‘intra racialism’ even among one race – the Han Chinese?
Let me tell our honorable Ir TO Lau, that in the 1960 there were two rival secret societies in the country that were all the time fighting with each other. They were the gangsters groups in Ipoh where the tin mines were.
They belonged to the Ghee Hin (Cantonese) and Hai San (Hakka) secret societies, and were especially active in Larut, Perak, and spilled over even to Selangor and Kuala Lumpur. Gangsters belonging to these two secret societies were constantly hating and fighting with each other, even though, the Pangkor Treaty signed in 1874 under the British, it was agreed there should be no more fights and feuds among the Chinese Hakka and Cantonese in Perak over tin. They spilled their feuds and hatred from China over to Malaya since the 1800’s.
I always read of these gangster fights among the Hakka and Cantonese in the New Straits Times as a young man then.
I wonder where all these gangsters are now. We don’t hear of these Chinese gangsters anymore. They must have all died of old age, or they may have now grown so old, they have no more strength left to fight anymore. Either this or they must have realized gangster fights brought no profit to them as they grew older and became more mature?
But wise old Cantonese TO Lau said he wishes not to fight with anyone especially with the Hakka. Maybe it will be a different picture if TO were to be placed in a crowded Tulou house among the Hakka clan in China. There is no space even to properly breathe inside. He will start fighting to death to demand his rights to live decently with breathing space. Ha, ha!
jb lim
-------------------
The following 2 earlier emails have reference:
From: TO Lau
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010 9:39 PM
Dear Pastor David,
I enjoy reading the crossfire exchanges among you guys on the superior and glorious past and present among the three main Chinese dialect groups of Hokkiens, Hakkas and Hainaneses (not to miss out the Great Sifu Dr JB Lim) here in Malaysia.
Is it another "Clash of Civilizations" or more aptly "Clash of Clans"?
I don't want to get involved, hehehe............. because I am a Cantonese. No point to take side lah, so I won't offend any of you guys.
The most important thing of all is that we are ALL ethnic Chinese (or "Han-tribe" to be exact) i.e. the "descendants of the Dragon" and we should all be brothers, friends, comrades....and NOT enemies! Don't you agree?
Regards,
Lau
31/10/2010-------------------------From: david chen
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 6:03 PM
greetings lau,
side talk.
A third party wrote :
Very busy crossfire on the hakka issue.
I enjoyed it, until it went personal-- did you notice? they forgot it's was a discussion only.
regards,
david
Subject: Hokkien and Cantonese fighting
Date: Friday, 5 November, 2010, 11:52 PM
Hi folks,
This column on Hakka tulou is getting longer and longer until it has now been spilt into several new separate windows by so many other net buddies, still on the Hakka and other Chinese clans. It became longer and longer with endless comments into the original picture story. It is now separated into many parts by net buddies 98% whom I do not even know.
So now I do not even know into which new window page should I continue with this commentary now? So I use some of the original continuity.
Reading all your inputs on the different clans of Chinese in this country, our honorable Ir TO Lau said he wants to keep out from this fight with the Hakka as he said he is a Cantonese, and that we are all the same Han Chinese. I never knew there is ‘intra racialism’ even among one race – the Han Chinese?
Let me tell our honorable Ir TO Lau, that in the 1960 there were two rival secret societies in the country that were all the time fighting with each other. They were the gangsters groups in Ipoh where the tin mines were.
They belonged to the Ghee Hin (Cantonese) and Hai San (Hakka) secret societies, and were especially active in Larut, Perak, and spilled over even to Selangor and Kuala Lumpur. Gangsters belonging to these two secret societies were constantly hating and fighting with each other, even though, the Pangkor Treaty signed in 1874 under the British, it was agreed there should be no more fights and feuds among the Chinese Hakka and Cantonese in Perak over tin. They spilled their feuds and hatred from China over to Malaya since the 1800’s.I always read of these gangster fights among the Hakka and Cantonese in the New Straits Times as a young man then.
I wonder where all these gangsters are now. We don’t hear of these Chinese gangsters anymore. They must have all died of old age, or they may have now grown so old, they have no more strength left to fight anymore. Either this or they must have realized gangster fights brought no profit to them as they grew older and became more mature?
But wise old Cantonese TO Lau said he wishes not to fight with anyone especially with the Hakka. Maybe it will be a different picture if TO were to be placed in a crowded Tulou house among the Hakka clan in China. There is no space even to properly breathe inside. He will start fighting to death to demand his rights to live decently with breathing space. Ha, ha!jb lim
-------------------
The following 2 earlier emails have reference:
From: TO Lau
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010 9:39 PM
Dear Pastor David,
I enjoy reading the crossfire exchanges among you guys on the superior and glorious past and present among the three main Chinese dialect groups of Hokkiens, Hakkas and Hainaneses (not to miss out the Great Sifu Dr JB Lim) here in Malaysia.
Is it another "Clash of Civilizations" or more aptly "Clash of Clans"?I don't want to get involved, hehehe............. because I am a Cantonese. No point to take side lah, so I won't offend any of you guys.
The most important thing of all is that we are ALL ethnic Chinese (or "Han-tribe" to be exact) i.e. the "descendants of the Dragon" and we should all be brothers, friends, comrades....and NOT enemies! Don't you agree?
Regards,
Lau
31/10/2010-------------------------From: david chen
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 6:03 PM
greetings lau,
side talk.
A third party wrote :
Very busy crossfire on the hakka issue.
I enjoyed it, until it went personal-- did you notice? they forgot it's was a discussion only.
regards,
david